Integrity & Radical Truth: Remembering Who We Are with Niyonu Spann

When systems of oppression are so entrenched, omnipresent, and internalized, how can we discover, remember, and recognize the truth of who we are? 

Is it possible to transform our deepest-rooted convictions about ourselves? The roots of our essential selves and the constraining narratives we’ve internalized can feel inextricable–for Niyonu Spann and her work as a facilitator, creator, and teacher, this question is central to the possibilities of integrity and wholeness. Niyonu and Dwight discuss the origins and leadings of the Beyond Diversity 101 workshops, witnessing the possibilities of radical love and wholeness beyond guilt/shame/blame cycles, and honoring the interconnectedness of our lives.

Read the transcript of this episode.

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Niyonu Spann is a facilitator, musician, and community leader with decades of experience inside and outside of Quaker Institutions, including time here at Pendle Hill as the Dean in the early 2000s. She designed the transformative workshop Beyond Diversity 101 which has been attended by hundreds of Friends from around the country. Niyonu is a prolific musician, and the founder and director of the group Tribe 1 which performed songs of peace and justice all over the US and Nicaragua. She has worked extensively in Chester, PA with Chester Eastside ministries and is currently in the process of opening a school called The Academy for Peace & Liberation Education. To learn more about Niyonu’s work, visit http://niyonuspann.com/

Watch Niyonu's May 2023 First Monday Lecture, “Integrous Testifying: Body, Mind & Spirit,” on Pendle Hill's YouTube channel.

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The transcript for this episode is available on https://pendlehillseed.buzzsprout.com/

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The Seed is a project of Pendle Hill, a Quaker center, open to all, for Spirit-led learning, retreat, and community. We’re located in Wallingford, Pennsylvania, on the traditional territory of the Lenni-Lenape people.

Follow us @pendlehillseed on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter, and subscribe to The Seed wherever you get your podcasts to get episodes in your library as they're released. To learn more, visit pendlehill.org/podcast.

This project is made possible by the generous support of the Thomas H. & Mary Williams Shoemaker Fund.

Transcript

Niyonu Spann  0:08  

It is about wholeness. It is about remembering who we are...

Dwight Dunston  0:26  

You're listening to The Seed: Conversations for Radical Hope, a Pendle Hill podcast where Quakers and other seekers come together to explore visions of the world that is growing up through the cracks of our broken systems. I'm your host, Dwight Dunston. This season, we're creating a space to explore the Quaker testimony of integrity. Together with our guests, we'll talk through the challenges and possibilities of aligning our intentions and actions, in embodying our values with authenticity and grace. 

Our guest today is Niyonu Spann. Niyonu is a facilitator, musician, and community leader with decades of experience inside and outside of Quaker institutions, including time here at Pendle Hill as the Dean in the early 2000s. She designed the transformative workshop Beyond Diversity 101, which has been attended by hundreds of friends from around the country. Niyonu is a prolific musician and the founder and director of the group Tribe 1, which performed songs of peace and justice all over the US and Nicaragua. She has worked extensively in Chester, Pennsylvania, with Chester Eastside ministries, and is currently in the process of opening a school called the Academy for Peace and Liberation Education.

Niyonu, thank you so, so much for being on the podcast today, on this season. I've been excited. I want to ask so many questions today, and I don't want to get ahead of myself. I want to start where we often start here, which is just: what's it like being Niyonu today? 

Niyonu Spann  2:08  

Well, you know, I tend to be very conscious of the current air around me. And what's going on, you know. So, I just came back from being in Florida. And because I was ill part of the time I was there, it slowed my roll in a very interesting way. I planned on doing a lot of writing while I was down there. And I was like calling it a 'workcation' to everybody. And you know, I got sick. And so part of what happened once I like realized I was stopping, I was not going to do my plan, I started having dreams. And you know, I always put dreams in these different categories. And there's definitely a category of dreams that feel like spiritual school, you know.  You know, just feels like, 'Okay, I'm aware that I'm being taught something right now.' And it was a it was a series of those. And they were definitely affirmations for what I'm up to right now. But they were also, like, waking me up to a few things. One was gratitude, like expressing gratitude to Spirit for all that's coming in. And I usually have a quick like sense of gratitude, right after, you know, some manifestation happens, but this was like, no, like, take time. Like, stop. So that was one message coming through. And another was just about people who I love, and many of them have crossed over. And I had this deep sense of missing them. Like, like that real deep missing. With tears, like those dream tears. I can't really describe--like when you're, when you're crying in your dream and you wake up and you're like, you've been really like, crying. And it's not about wet tears. It's about something that feels really close to the heart. So I'm in this fresh remembering that comes oftentimes maybe on the other side of illness, but also it feels very connected to these messages that have come through through recent dreams. And there's just all kinds of manifestation going on right now. It's like a big harvesting time in my life. 

Dwight Dunston  5:21  

Yeah,

Niyonu Spann  5:22  

Yeah. 

Dwight Dunston  5:24  

Yeah, thank you. Thank you for sharing. Wow, it resonates in my own life and conversations I'm having with other people, some of those themes that you were just lifting up around the deep gratitude, but also longing for connection, or are just sitting under the weight of maybe the grief or heartbroken this or the loss? 

Niyonu Spann  5:48  

Yes, yes. 

Dwight Dunston  5:49  

And I'm curious, because it sounds like-- right, I imagine you've felt that before. And I'm curious how in the past you integrated that feeling, or how you sat with the, yeah, having to have this new reality after folks have transitioned. Or being in that deep state of gratitude, you know, how that's catalyzed maybe how you move in the world, or the kind of work that you do in the world. Any of those, just how you've integrated in the past? And maybe what's being revealed to you, and in this moment around those experiences?

Niyonu Spann  6:24  

Yeah, well, some of it, for me is about feeling my feelings. You know, I'm such a visionary in the sense of being drawn to vision and being all about manifesting it once I've seen it. And so I can skip over feelings so, so easily on either side of that. I can skip over them because there's something to be seen. And I'm like, let it come really clear. And I can skip over it, because I've seen it, and now it's time to be about the business of bringing it in. And sometimes I think somewhere along the way, I got the idea that taking time for feelings can get in the way of either one of those. So I think it's part of why sometimes I have to be stopped. And then there's that sinking inward. And oh, oh, there's grief here. Or there's longing here. Or there's sadness. So what I keep learning...

Dwight Dunston  7:53  

Not the 'keep learnings'...

Niyonu Spann  7:56  

It is a ‘keep learning,’ man, I mean, I'm telling you, what I seem to keep having to learn is back to that place again, of integrating the whole, of being with the whole of it. Yeah.

Dwight Dunston  8:16  

I so appreciate. Because as I have heard about your work, and while I've listened to your music, I've listened to Tribe One and have good just just seeing how you moved in the world. I am grateful to hear even you are in those keep learning modes, right? Because sometimes I'll be like, oh, man, I had to learn this thing again... 

Niyonu Spann  8:43  

I know! 

Dwight Dunston  8:43  

he had no experience. And I think when we're talking about integrity, I imagine some piece of the continued learning and continue growing perhaps has to do with your continued growing into living into a value such as integrity. But I would love to just hear you share a little bit more about about this theme of integrity and maybe how it connects to this continued learning that that you and I, and I imagine many others listening, are also on the journey.

Niyonu Spann  9:17  

Yeah, I was so excited to know that this season was about integrity. And, you know, like if one has three primary things they've like focused on their whole life, being integrous is so central to everything that I'm up to. So, yeah, for me, it's like the key note and I think of it musically as, you know, it's the frequency that you introduced, and then everything is in relationship to, to that frequency. 

You know, I think about these different songs that either I wrote or that I've sung that are in direct relationship to this. But the one that I did not write these words, but people will be familiar is:

Give over thine own running / give over thine own doing / give over thine own desiring / to do or to be anything / just sink deep down to that seed / that song so sure in your heart / and let it be in thee

You know? And, and that is...that's it, the surrendering. That's the lesson that, you know, I can tell 1000 stories of coming back to that again. You know, when we grow to know, when we've lost, and when we're getting off track from that sinking down to that seed and letting it be in you and growing you.

Dwight Dunston  11:23  

Wow. 

Niyonu Spann  11:24  

You know? 

Dwight Dunston  11:25  

Yeah. 

Niyonu Spann  11:29  

Yeah, 

Dwight Dunston  11:29  

You know, I didn't even know I needed it. I knew I needed that song, but I didn't know I needed that song! So thank you for that gift. And wow, just yeah, those lyrics are gonna be--I'm gonna be meditating on those. And I'm curious. Just hearing you talk about dreams you had, manifesting, just being a visionary. I definitely see so much of your work and your facilitation and your art as just extremely visionary. And I want to talk specifically about Beyond Diversity 101, which also is known as BD101. And just hearing if there was a specific experience, or maybe it was a moment of integrity that caused you to actually create BD101. Or if there's a specific moment that comes to mind in BD101 that embodies this definition of integrity, beautiful definition you just laid out for us. Yeah, just, yeah, maybe a little about the origin. And what comes to mind with BD101 and integrity.

Niyonu Spann  12:35  

Yeah, I want to do that. And a little background from one of my youngest memories with my dad. I don't even know how old I was, maybe eight? And I was asking him, like, 'what is truth?' You know, and it was burning, it was like burning. I was like, 'but how do you know truth?' And he passed just a couple of years ago, but he oftentimes would recount that to me. And so, you know, I remember so much going forward in life, actually, when I was teaching at Oakwood school, and Poughkeepsie. And, um, you know, I'm one of two Black teachers in the school, the other one was my then-husband. So of course, you know, like all that, now we would say, kids of color or BIPOC kids, you know, would often come to us and, you know, just share their experiences and their stories and how they felt being away from home, and so forth, and so on. And so I started doing these antiracism classes. Not even classes, they were after school gatherings. And I remember very much sitting on the floor, looking up at something that I had written on the blackboard, that racism equals power plus prejudice. And I remember sitting on the floor looking up at that definition. And I just had one of those almost out of body experiences of taking that definition and wishing it through my whole life going forward. And I was like, oh, so I don't have power, and never will, according to this definition. 

And that was one moment. And another moment, I was running a racism workshop, and it was an older Black man. And he said, 'There's racism now. And they always will be there, always has been, and nothing you walk into in this workshop is gonna make a difference.' And those two experiences helped to create this seed in me of: is there anything beyond this? Is there anything beyond having workshops where, you know, people of color get in touch with their anger and express more and more, and white folks get more and more guilty and come to tears? Like, is that the pinnacle of all of this? And calling that out, like I want to create something that is beyond that cycle was the seed thought and yearning that called BD101 into being and a life of experiences that I've had the honor of holding the space for. Yeah, there is something beyond it.

Dwight Dunston  16:08  

The image coming to my mind is that--and it's connected to your identity as a visionary--where you took these experiences, asking your dad about truth, and then contending with this word power on the board that you wrote out, right? And then being in this training, and this older Black man saying, and nothing you will ever do, right? You just had these experiences, and you went and created a container, or began to envision.

Niyonu Spann  16:38  

Yes.

Dwight Dunston  16:39  

Just a different field, a different space, where you could actually transmute the experiences had by BIPOC folks and white folks in a space beyond what you were seeing, or what you were told was possible. And I'm curious, is there a moment, in your experience, where you got to see that transmutation take place? And perhaps a sense of deeper integrity fill the space from the transmutation, the transformation? 

Niyonu Spann  17:14  

Yeah, you know, there are a series--it's almost like a comic strip where like, I'm seeing these different moments. So yes, absolutely. And what feels common to almost all of them are moments of folks remembering who they are. Or remembering that they, in fact, don't have to be whatever this story is that either they've been making up or that have been made up on a societal level for them. So you know, I'm thinking of a white lesbian couple that has just adopted a child of color. And watching them come to a place of, 'Oh, like all of this sense of guilt, that is woven into my notion of who I am as a white person, and white parenting that all that guilt that's woven in there, can only bring about exactly the kinds of manifestations that I'm saying I don't want for my parenting or for this child.' You know, a Black woman, you know, sitting in a circle when we've acted out a story, and her recognizing that her attachment to--I call it victimology--but her attachment to some stories around being victim are the main things that are blocking her from doing the things that she actually wants to do, and that she's here to do.

But, you know, like even saying it to you, like flattens it in a certain kind of way, because in the midst of that remembering is the falling away of what's been structured in the being, in the person. Not to mention on a societal level, but right now I'm giving some examples where people on a more individual level realize what they've internalized from a societal level. And all of that, you know, is also happening within me. And that, to me, is directly related to integrity.

Dwight Dunston  20:01  

Yeah. There's some part of your work where, as you describe it, supporting people to remember something about themselves, something about their goodness, their potential, their power, you know, their brilliance. Right, you accompanying them on that journey. And that being connected to integrity, wholeness. I don't know, every time I talk to somebody, the definitions in my mind be appearing, but I'm like, wholeness as integrity, integrity as wholeness is what I, what I just heard you share about.

Niyonu Spann  20:41  

Yes, absolutely. Yeah, like, you know, I have this song that says, "What you put down now, what you put down now, what you put down now, it'll grow sometime, you've given it life." And the thing about that is, you know, we can think about that, in what we might call a positive sense. And when I said 'sink deep down to that seed,' we think about that was sown in us. But there's also what was sown that is blocking wholeness. And the work for me is in seeing what got planted down in that soil along with my essential self, but there's some stuff that got planted along there as well, that is, like, is pretty well rooted…it is well rooted!

Dwight Dunston  21:45  

Right…it’s looking like…

Niyonu Spann 21:51  

It’s looking like you done got it twisted, right, in terms of whether that's truly, truly who you've come to be. You know, and as Black folks, that's why I love you know, BD101 race in particular, where we spend a lot of time in specific racial groups. Part of what we're asking is: what have we internalized, what is in there rooted that we have just come to just say, that's us? You know, that really is just operating to keep us from being well, from being whole. And digging some of that up, that ain't no joke.

Dwight Dunston  22:41  

It gives me hope to think about that work that is actually possible to get to that root. 

Niyonu Spann 22:22

Yes. 

Dwight Dunston 22:23

Right. And because something happens in community. 

Niyonu Spann 22:26 

Yes.

Dwight Dunston 22:27

That folks are able to get down to some of those roots of those lies. And I'm wondering if you can connect it to actually, this new project that you're embarking on, bringing into fruition a school, a school project, right, you know, something about school as community and what kind of right nurturing and growth can happen in schools.

Niyonu Spann  23:15  

You know, and Dwight, I gotta say, like, we could talk about the school, Academy for Peace and Liberation Education, we can talk about the work I'm doing in Connecticut, we can talk about my music, and we can talk about BD101. And literally, for me, it is really the exact same thing. 

Dwight Dunston 23:11

Wow. Yeah, 

Niyonu Spann 23:13

It is about wholeness. It is about remembering who we are. It is about tapping the part of us that is creator, is co-creator. Quakers have the language of ‘there is that of God and everyone.’ And I would say that saying the same thing, that we are creator, we are co-creators. And somewhere some things have happened to interrupt that natural flow of creation, of creating, of creator. And so the school for me, the question that I say to bring in the school is what would high school education be if it were about liberation? If every single course that is taught, if the hiring of staff, if the relationship to the community, the neighborhood, if the maintenance crew, if like if every hour aspect of it was about liberation, what would it be? Because it's clearly not what high school education is. What our processes for actually dismantling, or transmuting, what has been introduced into our systems? We gotta not only create spaces where we're both remembering and destructuring, we got to tell the truth about how we got structured. You know, that's, that's on a societal level, and the US level and all of that. We call that current events or history or whatever–but through the lens that we can participate in destructuring these things. And so we're working on building this curriculum and pedagogy that, you know, creates the spaces.

That word that I haven't used really are like, the core beliefs that we have, right? You know, like, do we think it's possible to destructure, dismantle? I mean, really? Like, really do we think that that's possible? Like, I would love to teach a course that’s just that–that's all we do, is look at what we think is possible, and why and, and just kind of, like, get in there and swim in there. 

You know, I'm from Newark, New Jersey. So there's a familiarity anytime I'm in like a city that is predominantly Black, that's talked about by other folks and all kinds of put down and, you know, and what's been internalized about us having the capacity to thrive and to create ourselves. Like that question that how much we've been fed that would say, you need to depend on these folks to do this, y'all can't handle nothing yourselves that have nothing to do with finances–the messages are strong, and many of them come from within our community now. It's not even like, you know, we have to go out to get these. My experience is you hold a space that creates or offers a few opportunities to question these core, core beliefs and to swim and dance together in ways that we rarely do. And immediately, like sparks start shooting you know, whether it's young people or, or elders, things start coming up. Like, ‘I love what's going on in this circle right here. But I don't believe this could happen anywhere else.’ How many times have I heard people say that? ‘I love what's happening right here. I would love this the rest of my life, but you can't take this down to the avenue.’ You know, but there you go. It's all right there.

Dwight Dunston  28:41  

Wow. And, and right, and just that–I would sign up for that class, the ‘what is possible’ class, you know. But even in that sharing of somebody's like, I like what's going on here. I don't know if it's possible elsewhere. I laugh internally because I'm like, but can you notice it's possible? It is possible. If it's happening here than it necessarily means it's possible anywhere else, right?

Niyonu Spann 28:37

Thank you! 

Dwight Dunston 28:39

You know, it's such a gift of love to be able to open up for people possibility, you know, that remembering a part of themselves that they maybe forgot or to present a possibility for them to step into, right, and the sparks to fly. That's a loving gesture, Niyonu. And maybe the question is, yeah, I'm curious if you want to share about who was someone in your life who did for you what I really see you doing for so many others?

Niyonu Spann  29:38  

Mhmm. Yeah. I mean, number one, I would have to say definitely my primary spiritual teacher, Daria. She loves me fiercely, and she loves fiercely, but it's a fierce–it's not like a sweet like, ‘can I lay up next to you?’ kind of love. It’s more like ‘Yeah, and when did you start believing that?’ And, ‘I heard you say this, that doesn't match what you say now.’ That kind of mirroring back to whoever we're holding space for it is critical. And it's about that integrity, because you know, whether I'm working with an organization, or coaching an individual, what I always say is my role is: based on who you've said you are here to be, to reflect back to you ways that are matching that, and ways that are out of alignment with that. And to guide you in some ways of surfacing ways that you're out of alignment with who you've said you're here to be. And that's why I like working with organizations so much, who say they're community serving, or who say they're about wellness, or say they're about justice, or activist groups that saying they're about social justice, but the way they operate internally is so counter, what they say they're intending to create. And you know, I probably quote this Goethe quote, more than any other: “if you would create something, you must be something.” And so that mitch-match, it ain't gonna fly, it just does not fly. You know, what is still at the roots that needs to be dug up will keep showing up in the petals…if it hasn't been addressed. That's bottom line why integrity is central to living out whether you call it your mission, your organizational mission, whether you call it your calling in life, or, you know. Yeah.

Dwight Dunston 31:45  

Niyonu, as we move to closing our time together, I'm curious if there's a practice or an invitation for our listeners, just as they potentially begin to step more in alignment with their purpose, their mission, their life calling. Really live with that integrity we spoke about, that integrity that's pointed towards wholeness. What would be a first step? Yeah, or maybe a practice as folks listening to this podcast, look to live it integrous life?

Niyonu Spann 33:26  

Well, I'll say three short things. For a person that is more kinesthetic, I would say to just take like a 10 minute period, and set a timer. And thinking about something that you're called to do, close your eyes and see if it locates somewhere in your body. And once it locates someplace, imagine either sending and feeding that place so that all you're doing is sending it energy. Or ask a question about what might be blocking and getting in the way of and then let it go. Don’t try to fix anything, don’t try to do anything. And see what comes up for you. For someone that's more auditory, there are so many songs that are about vision and calling. And what is it that you're up to. I have a song called “Focus and Fire” if you can't find anything else. And it's on all the places, it’s on Spotify it’s on YouTube. Just listen to that. And then afterwards, just do some writing and see what comes up for you. And for someone who's a little bit more visual, I might invite to listen to focus on fire and just have something that you can draw on and just do some drawing. And a little worship after any one of these would be beautiful to see if spirit offers you some guidance.

Dwight Dunston 34:27  

You've offered us so many gifts today Niyonu. And I'm so grateful for the time we got to spend today and that you brought to this moment, this moment together. What now feels more possible from being in your presence. So thank you, thank you for being a visionary, loving, intentional visionary. And I got me some homework. I'm gonna go get into my homework right after this.

Niyonu  Spann 35:08  

Thank you so much, Dwight, this has been a blessing. And I would love to leave people with the knowing that as you step into doing this work, if the work is about liberation or justice or equity or integrity, knowing that whoever you're working with is you. And having that heart connection makes all the difference in the world.

Dwight Dunston 35:55
Pendle Hill is a Quaker center, open to all, for Spirit-led learning, retreat, and community. We’re located in Wallingford, Pennsylvania, on the traditional territory of the Lenni-Lenape people.  Visit us at PendleHill.org. Many of our guests are teachers, leaders, and speakers at Pendle Hill. For a full list of these upcoming education opportunities, visit our events page at pendlehill.org/learn.

To learn more about Niyonu's work, visit https://niyonuspann.com. This podcast was produced and edited by Ariel Goodman, with editorial support by Pendle Hill education associate Anna Hill, and advising from education director Frances Kreimer. Our episodes were mixed by Leah Shaw Dameron. Our theme music is the I Rise Project by Reverend Rhetta Morgan and Bennett Kuhn, produced by Astro Nautico Records.

This project was made possible by the generous support of the Thomas H. and Mary Williams Shoemaker Fund.


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